<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:series="http://unfoldingneurons.com/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: How Can We Conserve Biblical Worship? Part 4</title>
	<atom:link href="http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/</link>
	<description>Heart. Soul. MInd.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 19:13:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: How Can We Conserve Biblical Worship? Part 6 &#124; Religious Affections Ministries</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1324</link>
		<dc:creator>How Can We Conserve Biblical Worship? Part 6 &#124; Religious Affections Ministries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1324</guid>
		<description>[...] ordinate affection and appetite and choosing worship forms that foster those affections for God, by cultivating those worship forms that have been nurtured within the community of faith, and by proactively transmitting those forms and values to our [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ordinate affection and appetite and choosing worship forms that foster those affections for God, by cultivating those worship forms that have been nurtured within the community of faith, and by proactively transmitting those forms and values to our [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott Aniol</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1323</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aniol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1323</guid>
		<description>I see your point, Ben.

Regarding missions: I mention in footnote 2 that I recognize the added difficulty of non-Western civilizations. However, I&#039;ve also presented &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.religiousaffections.org/articles/culture/should-we-use-western-music-when-planting-indigenous-churches-in-other-cultures&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; that I would &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; simply transplant Western music uncritically into a non-Western culture.

What I would probably suggest is to start with plain chant; not Gregorian chant, but earlier than that. The reason I would suggest starting there is that plain chant is about as a-cultural as you can get. It&#039;s just one step removed from natural human vocal intonation. It&#039;s simply intoning texts (I would start with the Psalms) in a natural melodic progression. It&#039;s naturally modal (i.e. not major or minor), yet has a tonal center, which is natural for all cultures.

In other words, I would suggest starting with the basics. Start there, and then as people come to Christ and a Christian culture develops, the musical forms can develop as well. Who knows; Zimbambwe could produce the next J. S. Bach! :)

In other words, my suggestion is that if you find yourself in a cultural environment devoid of Christian influence, the solution is to go back as far as you need to in order to build off of forms that express transcendent, noble values. You have to start somewhere; you have to build with something. And I&#039;m suggesting that we build with material that has stood the tests of time as appropriate vehicles for expressing biblical truth.

In some cultures, &quot;going back&quot; might mean all the way back to natural human intonation. I don&#039;t think we have that problem with Western culture. We have a heritage upon which we can build. We just need to re-familiarize ourselves with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see your point, Ben.</p>
<p>Regarding missions: I mention in footnote 2 that I recognize the added difficulty of non-Western civilizations. However, I&#8217;ve also presented <a href="http://www.religiousaffections.org/articles/culture/should-we-use-western-music-when-planting-indigenous-churches-in-other-cultures" rel="nofollow">here</a> that I would <i>not</i> simply transplant Western music uncritically into a non-Western culture.</p>
<p>What I would probably suggest is to start with plain chant; not Gregorian chant, but earlier than that. The reason I would suggest starting there is that plain chant is about as a-cultural as you can get. It&#8217;s just one step removed from natural human vocal intonation. It&#8217;s simply intoning texts (I would start with the Psalms) in a natural melodic progression. It&#8217;s naturally modal (i.e. not major or minor), yet has a tonal center, which is natural for all cultures.</p>
<p>In other words, I would suggest starting with the basics. Start there, and then as people come to Christ and a Christian culture develops, the musical forms can develop as well. Who knows; Zimbambwe could produce the next J. S. Bach! :)</p>
<p>In other words, my suggestion is that if you find yourself in a cultural environment devoid of Christian influence, the solution is to go back as far as you need to in order to build off of forms that express transcendent, noble values. You have to start somewhere; you have to build with something. And I&#8217;m suggesting that we build with material that has stood the tests of time as appropriate vehicles for expressing biblical truth.</p>
<p>In some cultures, &#8220;going back&#8221; might mean all the way back to natural human intonation. I don&#8217;t think we have that problem with Western culture. We have a heritage upon which we can build. We just need to re-familiarize ourselves with it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1322</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Apr 2010 03:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1322</guid>
		<description>Scott,

Thanks for the clarifications. I do think you too closely associate Christianity with transcendent values. Here&#039;s an example from the original post:

&quot;Since the legalization of Christianity by Constantine in the fourth century, Christianity was the dominating cultural influence in Western society. All of the cultural forms that come out of that period were nurtured in an environment of transcendent values. This is not to say that it was all sacred or even that it was all good. But all of the forms were created to express transcendent values.&quot;

Though I see your caveats, it seems to me that they do not sufficiently account for the fact that the historic &quot;Church&quot; in the period you describe was in many times and places sub-Christian, even pagan, even though it embraced transcendence.

I don&#039;t mean at all to discard your main argument, but it makes me wonder whether the distinctions between forms nurtured within and without the community of faith are as stark as you suggest.

As a corollary, if you&#039;re planting a church in a premodern, non-western community (pick your geography and culture), I&#039;d assume you would not introduce Western medieval religious musical forms to your Christian worship. I&#039;d also assume you&#039;d work to understand that culture to identify which indigenous musical forms are best suited to communicate Christian truth. True? I could certainly be wrong. And I&#039;d assume you&#039;d do your best to avoid forms tied to animism, even if that community of faith has some understanding of transcendence.

So what would you do? Have I missed my guesses?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott,</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarifications. I do think you too closely associate Christianity with transcendent values. Here&#8217;s an example from the original post:</p>
<p>&#8220;Since the legalization of Christianity by Constantine in the fourth century, Christianity was the dominating cultural influence in Western society. All of the cultural forms that come out of that period were nurtured in an environment of transcendent values. This is not to say that it was all sacred or even that it was all good. But all of the forms were created to express transcendent values.&#8221;</p>
<p>Though I see your caveats, it seems to me that they do not sufficiently account for the fact that the historic &#8220;Church&#8221; in the period you describe was in many times and places sub-Christian, even pagan, even though it embraced transcendence.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean at all to discard your main argument, but it makes me wonder whether the distinctions between forms nurtured within and without the community of faith are as stark as you suggest.</p>
<p>As a corollary, if you&#8217;re planting a church in a premodern, non-western community (pick your geography and culture), I&#8217;d assume you would not introduce Western medieval religious musical forms to your Christian worship. I&#8217;d also assume you&#8217;d work to understand that culture to identify which indigenous musical forms are best suited to communicate Christian truth. True? I could certainly be wrong. And I&#8217;d assume you&#8217;d do your best to avoid forms tied to animism, even if that community of faith has some understanding of transcendence.</p>
<p>So what would you do? Have I missed my guesses?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: d4v34x</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1321</link>
		<dc:creator>d4v34x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 20:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1321</guid>
		<description>No, you were being mostly clear; conversely, I hope I am not coming across as obtuse.  What clarifications I needed are in the third paragraph of your response above.
To further clarify, when you say &quot;able to express,&quot; do I rightly understand you to mean a given medium has the capacity to fully &quot;contain&quot; and express a God exalting message without any aspect of the medium distorting/contradicting that message?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, you were being mostly clear; conversely, I hope I am not coming across as obtuse.  What clarifications I needed are in the third paragraph of your response above.<br />
To further clarify, when you say &#8220;able to express,&#8221; do I rightly understand you to mean a given medium has the capacity to fully &#8220;contain&#8221; and express a God exalting message without any aspect of the medium distorting/contradicting that message?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott Aniol</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1320</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aniol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 18:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1320</guid>
		<description>I must not being clear; I apologize for that.

I&#039;m in no way saying that (a) forms rooted in transcendent values cannot express sinful messages, nor am I saying that (b) there are no other possible forms appropriate for sacred purposes than those nurtured in Western civilization. I&#039;m NOT saying either of these things.

What I am [attempting!] to argue is that (a) cultures nurtured in societies with transcendent value systems will more likely produce forms compatible with expressing biblical truth and (b) since 4th-17th century Western civilization was dominated by transcendent values (because of the Church&#039;s dominance over culture), cultural forms cultivated during that period are more likely to be able to express biblical truth than forms cultivated during the last couple centuries.

This is not to say that nothing good has been written recently (I explicitly make this point in the post). But what good that has been written has used and developed forms that were nurtured within the community of faith, not without.

On the other hand, MOST of what evangelicalism and fundamentalism has produced in terms of worship music in the last 150 years has utilized forms that have been cultivated in a mass culture driven by commercialism and worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must not being clear; I apologize for that.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m in no way saying that (a) forms rooted in transcendent values cannot express sinful messages, nor am I saying that (b) there are no other possible forms appropriate for sacred purposes than those nurtured in Western civilization. I&#8217;m NOT saying either of these things.</p>
<p>What I am [attempting!] to argue is that (a) cultures nurtured in societies with transcendent value systems will more likely produce forms compatible with expressing biblical truth and (b) since 4th-17th century Western civilization was dominated by transcendent values (because of the Church&#8217;s dominance over culture), cultural forms cultivated during that period are more likely to be able to express biblical truth than forms cultivated during the last couple centuries.</p>
<p>This is not to say that nothing good has been written recently (I explicitly make this point in the post). But what good that has been written has used and developed forms that were nurtured within the community of faith, not without.</p>
<p>On the other hand, MOST of what evangelicalism and fundamentalism has produced in terms of worship music in the last 150 years has utilized forms that have been cultivated in a mass culture driven by commercialism and worse.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: d4v34x</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1319</link>
		<dc:creator>d4v34x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 17:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1319</guid>
		<description>But one can embrace the notions of the numinous and absolute truth, etc,  be influenced by Biblical thought, and, using the forms nurtured in that environment, communicate paganism to pagans.  In fact, it&#039;s been done rather famously in Western History (i.e. Robert Herrick).  Does this cause your assertion problems? or is your assertion a more &quot;one way&quot; sort if thing wherein &quot;lofiter&quot; forms may be used at times to communicate subjects rather too common for said forms without rendering them useless as vehicles for legitimate praise to God?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But one can embrace the notions of the numinous and absolute truth, etc,  be influenced by Biblical thought, and, using the forms nurtured in that environment, communicate paganism to pagans.  In fact, it&#8217;s been done rather famously in Western History (i.e. Robert Herrick).  Does this cause your assertion problems? or is your assertion a more &#8220;one way&#8221; sort if thing wherein &#8220;lofiter&#8221; forms may be used at times to communicate subjects rather too common for said forms without rendering them useless as vehicles for legitimate praise to God?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott Aniol</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1318</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aniol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1318</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t say it keeps culture Christian. But it does present the Christian with material fitting to create Christian worship forms. This is in direct opposition to the material our current culture presents us with; material that most church music is based on today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t say it keeps culture Christian. But it does present the Christian with material fitting to create Christian worship forms. This is in direct opposition to the material our current culture presents us with; material that most church music is based on today.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: d4v34x</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1317</link>
		<dc:creator>d4v34x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1317</guid>
		<description>But the manifestations of the metaphysical dream Bauder discusses ranged from firm Biblicism to mystical to pagan.  It sounds like you&#039;re saying that the acknowledgement of the numinous and absolute truth together with some minimum coefficient of Biblical influence keeps culture Christian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the manifestations of the metaphysical dream Bauder discusses ranged from firm Biblicism to mystical to pagan.  It sounds like you&#8217;re saying that the acknowledgement of the numinous and absolute truth together with some minimum coefficient of Biblical influence keeps culture Christian.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott Aniol</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1316</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aniol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1316</guid>
		<description>Ben,

I&#039;m using &quot;Christianity&quot; in the broadest sense possible in this case. The biblical values I have in mind are not critically important issues concerning Christ, the gospel, atonement, etc. What I am referring to are essentially beliefs in transcendent, absolute truth, beauty, and goodness. Essentially, I am highlighting what Bauder has referred to as the Pre-modern imagination in his current Nick series.

In this I am not at all minimizing the important of some gospel truths that were indeed hidden during the dark ages, for example. However, I still believe that the dominant cultural influence during that time was more &quot;Christian&quot; than the dominant cultural influence of our time. That&#039;s my primary point.

d4v34x,

Yes, I would include poetic form certainly. Particular poetic forms, I believe, are more suited as vehicles for expressing certain truths and values than others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m using &#8220;Christianity&#8221; in the broadest sense possible in this case. The biblical values I have in mind are not critically important issues concerning Christ, the gospel, atonement, etc. What I am referring to are essentially beliefs in transcendent, absolute truth, beauty, and goodness. Essentially, I am highlighting what Bauder has referred to as the Pre-modern imagination in his current Nick series.</p>
<p>In this I am not at all minimizing the important of some gospel truths that were indeed hidden during the dark ages, for example. However, I still believe that the dominant cultural influence during that time was more &#8220;Christian&#8221; than the dominant cultural influence of our time. That&#8217;s my primary point.</p>
<p>d4v34x,</p>
<p>Yes, I would include poetic form certainly. Particular poetic forms, I believe, are more suited as vehicles for expressing certain truths and values than others.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: d4v34x</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-culture/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-4/#comment-1315</link>
		<dc:creator>d4v34x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3283#comment-1315</guid>
		<description>Hi Scott.  Really fascinating series.  I&#039;m sure you would include poetic style and form as cultural expressions/human expressions developed within a culture.  I find it hard, though, to make the same judgements of the type I am quite comfortable making regarding, say,  musical styles about the freight of meaning carried by these various poetic forms (with the possible exception of the limerick).  For instance I have read poems in both metered and free verse, with and without strict end rhyme that has sought to express the transcendent (of one sort or another).  Similarly, there are bawdy or huministic or [you name it] sonnets, villanelles, etc.  Thoughts there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Scott.  Really fascinating series.  I&#8217;m sure you would include poetic style and form as cultural expressions/human expressions developed within a culture.  I find it hard, though, to make the same judgements of the type I am quite comfortable making regarding, say,  musical styles about the freight of meaning carried by these various poetic forms (with the possible exception of the limerick).  For instance I have read poems in both metered and free verse, with and without strict end rhyme that has sought to express the transcendent (of one sort or another).  Similarly, there are bawdy or huministic or [you name it] sonnets, villanelles, etc.  Thoughts there?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

