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	<title>Comments on: How Can We Conserve Biblical Worship? Part 2</title>
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	<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/</link>
	<description>Heart. Soul. MInd.</description>
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		<title>By: Anastasis</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1297</link>
		<dc:creator>Anastasis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Scott, I have studied the RPW, and the division of worship into elements, forms (sometimes called modes), and circumstances has always struck me as extremely arbitrary and chosen to suit a pre-determined conclusion. For example, those who do not allow instruments or hymns specifically say that these are regulated elements. Others like yourself allow some other types of music and treat them as a matter of form. John Frame subscribes to the RPW but provoked controversy when he wrote that it permits dancing!

With drama, if the purpose of the drama is to teach, surely it is a form of teaching? Do we not have liberty as to how we teach? Is the sermon the only permissible form of teaching? You could make a strong case from the Bible that teaching should be interactive. And what about a dramatised Bible story? That could be considered both a scripture reading and a teaching.

I also thought about the Scripture itself - for example when Paul wrote his letters (which were most of the references you gave), the NT canon had not been compiled and so he was undoubtedly referring to the Jewish bible. So you could say that there is no NT mandate for reading the NT in church! What about baptism - as far as I know, all biblical examples were done in public, in the open air, and not inside a building behind closed doors. So the Bible appears to clearly specify not just the element of baptism, but also some aspects of its form and circumstances. The argument could be made that as baptism is a public profession of faith, then it is an essential element of baptism for it to be done in a public place. The meaning of the element is affected by the form and circumstances.

On liturgies, I have worshipped in the Church of England and there is actually considerable flexibility. Most evangelical Anglican churches don’t use much in the way of set prayers, and there are many different liturgical options to choose from. I don’t know what the “extra-biblical elements” you mentioned are.

The truth is that the RPW can be interpreted however you want. Hence my view that it is simply a way to justify the status quo. It is a completely meaningless and irrelevant concept that falls apart under close examination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, I have studied the RPW, and the division of worship into elements, forms (sometimes called modes), and circumstances has always struck me as extremely arbitrary and chosen to suit a pre-determined conclusion. For example, those who do not allow instruments or hymns specifically say that these are regulated elements. Others like yourself allow some other types of music and treat them as a matter of form. John Frame subscribes to the RPW but provoked controversy when he wrote that it permits dancing!</p>
<p>With drama, if the purpose of the drama is to teach, surely it is a form of teaching? Do we not have liberty as to how we teach? Is the sermon the only permissible form of teaching? You could make a strong case from the Bible that teaching should be interactive. And what about a dramatised Bible story? That could be considered both a scripture reading and a teaching.</p>
<p>I also thought about the Scripture itself &#8211; for example when Paul wrote his letters (which were most of the references you gave), the NT canon had not been compiled and so he was undoubtedly referring to the Jewish bible. So you could say that there is no NT mandate for reading the NT in church! What about baptism &#8211; as far as I know, all biblical examples were done in public, in the open air, and not inside a building behind closed doors. So the Bible appears to clearly specify not just the element of baptism, but also some aspects of its form and circumstances. The argument could be made that as baptism is a public profession of faith, then it is an essential element of baptism for it to be done in a public place. The meaning of the element is affected by the form and circumstances.</p>
<p>On liturgies, I have worshipped in the Church of England and there is actually considerable flexibility. Most evangelical Anglican churches don’t use much in the way of set prayers, and there are many different liturgical options to choose from. I don’t know what the “extra-biblical elements” you mentioned are.</p>
<p>The truth is that the RPW can be interpreted however you want. Hence my view that it is simply a way to justify the status quo. It is a completely meaningless and irrelevant concept that falls apart under close examination.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Aniol</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1296</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aniol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3265#comment-1296</guid>
		<description>Anastasis,

On the contrary, I readily admit that there are many gradations within the RWP, however, most of the differences have to do with form and not with the elements themselves. The examples you cite, for example, are mostly to do with form. Everyone agrees that the elements of music is acceptable, there is just disagreement as to what form it will take.

Drama, however, is a unique element that has no biblical warrant, except for baptism and the Lord&#039;s Supper.

Church buildings is another step removed. It has to do with the circumstances of worship, which allow for even more liberty. I would suggest you read my more thorough discussion of the RPW here: http://www.religiousaffections.org/articles/worship/the-liberating-regulative-principle-of-worship

RE: liturgies. I am not against liturgy at all. We all have liturgy. In fact, I am all for a formal liturgy in worship. What I am against is the kind of prescribed liturgy of the Church of England or the RCC that prescribes certain prayers to be spoken and other extra-biblical elements to be included.

Of the course the RPW is a man-make system. It is simply an honest attempt by conservative Christians throughout the ages to allow God to determine how he wants to be worship instead of relying on our own creativity and ingenuity. It is an attempt by godly pastors to protect the consciences of their people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anastasis,</p>
<p>On the contrary, I readily admit that there are many gradations within the RWP, however, most of the differences have to do with form and not with the elements themselves. The examples you cite, for example, are mostly to do with form. Everyone agrees that the elements of music is acceptable, there is just disagreement as to what form it will take.</p>
<p>Drama, however, is a unique element that has no biblical warrant, except for baptism and the Lord&#8217;s Supper.</p>
<p>Church buildings is another step removed. It has to do with the circumstances of worship, which allow for even more liberty. I would suggest you read my more thorough discussion of the RPW here: http://www.religiousaffections.org/articles/worship/the-liberating-regulative-principle-of-worship</p>
<p>RE: liturgies. I am not against liturgy at all. We all have liturgy. In fact, I am all for a formal liturgy in worship. What I am against is the kind of prescribed liturgy of the Church of England or the RCC that prescribes certain prayers to be spoken and other extra-biblical elements to be included.</p>
<p>Of the course the RPW is a man-make system. It is simply an honest attempt by conservative Christians throughout the ages to allow God to determine how he wants to be worship instead of relying on our own creativity and ingenuity. It is an attempt by godly pastors to protect the consciences of their people.</p>
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		<title>By: Anastasis</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1295</link>
		<dc:creator>Anastasis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3265#comment-1295</guid>
		<description>I also wanted to add a comment on &quot;prescribed liturgies&quot;. Whilst I personally am not a fan of liturgy, most scholars have concluded that first century Jewish worship, both in the temple and the synagogues, was liturgical in nature. It&#039;s almost certain that the early disciples (who were obviously Jewish) continued in this fashion as they met for worship...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also wanted to add a comment on &#8220;prescribed liturgies&#8221;. Whilst I personally am not a fan of liturgy, most scholars have concluded that first century Jewish worship, both in the temple and the synagogues, was liturgical in nature. It&#8217;s almost certain that the early disciples (who were obviously Jewish) continued in this fashion as they met for worship&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Anastasis</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1294</link>
		<dc:creator>Anastasis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3265#comment-1294</guid>
		<description>Scott,

You see the RPW as a homogenous belief, but in reality there are numerous different versions of it. Historically, many churches that subscribed to it adopted  exclusive a cappella psalmody, but most of those now permit hymns and instruments. And, whilst drama isn&#039;t mentioned in the NT, what if the purpose of the drama is to teach?

The elephant in the room is, of course, the room itself, for church buildings have no biblical authority!

I could say more, but basically the RPW is a man-made invention that is used to justify the status quo in certain churches by means of a selective interpretation of the Bible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott,</p>
<p>You see the RPW as a homogenous belief, but in reality there are numerous different versions of it. Historically, many churches that subscribed to it adopted  exclusive a cappella psalmody, but most of those now permit hymns and instruments. And, whilst drama isn&#8217;t mentioned in the NT, what if the purpose of the drama is to teach?</p>
<p>The elephant in the room is, of course, the room itself, for church buildings have no biblical authority!</p>
<p>I could say more, but basically the RPW is a man-made invention that is used to justify the status quo in certain churches by means of a selective interpretation of the Bible.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Aniol</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1293</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aniol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3265#comment-1293</guid>
		<description>Hi, d4v34x.

This was not intended to be a thorough defense of the RWP. For a more detailed biblical defense of the principle, please see this post: http://www.religiousaffections.org/articles/worship/the-liberating-regulative-principle-of-worship

Further, the appeal to Cain was not a direct appeal for the RWP, but simply an illustration of the fact that people since the beginning have been struggling with the worship issue.

Thanks for your comment!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, d4v34x.</p>
<p>This was not intended to be a thorough defense of the RWP. For a more detailed biblical defense of the principle, please see this post: http://www.religiousaffections.org/articles/worship/the-liberating-regulative-principle-of-worship</p>
<p>Further, the appeal to Cain was not a direct appeal for the RWP, but simply an illustration of the fact that people since the beginning have been struggling with the worship issue.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment!</p>
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		<title>By: d4v34x</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1292</link>
		<dc:creator>d4v34x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Mar 2010 02:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3265#comment-1292</guid>
		<description>It seems the case you&#039;ve made for the RPW itself is entirely from the traditions of men.  Can you cite any NT scriptural support for that?  Furthermore, the appeal to Cain is tricky, since the objectionable element there may have been entirely within Cain himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems the case you&#8217;ve made for the RPW itself is entirely from the traditions of men.  Can you cite any NT scriptural support for that?  Furthermore, the appeal to Cain is tricky, since the objectionable element there may have been entirely within Cain himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Watchman</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1291</link>
		<dc:creator>Watchman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 22:12:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3265#comment-1291</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the answer.  When do you think the New Testament chuch abandoned the sensory Hebrew worship that all of their members would have grown up with? Was it with the addition of Gentile converts? The writing of the Epistles?  Somewhen else?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the answer.  When do you think the New Testament chuch abandoned the sensory Hebrew worship that all of their members would have grown up with? Was it with the addition of Gentile converts? The writing of the Epistles?  Somewhen else?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Aniol</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1290</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aniol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3265#comment-1290</guid>
		<description>And, by the way, this is not my preferred outcome. My personal preference would be elaborate services with rich ceremonies and liturgies. I would personally prefer the involved, sensory worship of the OT. But I have to limit myself because of my convictions about the RPW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, by the way, this is not my preferred outcome. My personal preference would be elaborate services with rich ceremonies and liturgies. I would personally prefer the involved, sensory worship of the OT. But I have to limit myself because of my convictions about the RPW.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Aniol</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1289</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aniol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3265#comment-1289</guid>
		<description>Ah, didn&#039;t see your request for NT reference!

When it comes to what we may allow, I believe we must stick with the NT because the Church did not exist in the OT. However, there are transdispensational principles in the OT that can and should inform our worship.

So another example of this would be music. Music is clearly prescribed in the NT, so once we have the prescription, I believe that we can look to the OT for guidance on what forms it may take.

In other words, we must get our elements from the NT, but then we can use the whole of Scripture to inform the way we implement those elements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, didn&#8217;t see your request for NT reference!</p>
<p>When it comes to what we may allow, I believe we must stick with the NT because the Church did not exist in the OT. However, there are transdispensational principles in the OT that can and should inform our worship.</p>
<p>So another example of this would be music. Music is clearly prescribed in the NT, so once we have the prescription, I believe that we can look to the OT for guidance on what forms it may take.</p>
<p>In other words, we must get our elements from the NT, but then we can use the whole of Scripture to inform the way we implement those elements.</p>
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		<title>By: Watchman</title>
		<link>http://religiousaffections.org/articles/articles-on-worship/how-can-we-conserve-biblical-worship-part-2/#comment-1288</link>
		<dc:creator>Watchman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 21:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.religiousaffectionsministries.org/?p=3265#comment-1288</guid>
		<description>Not quite sure that&#039; is a New Testament reference, Scott.  You were pretty specific in your post about the source of your regulations  for today&#039;s church.  It&#039;s not my desire to be needlessly argumentative, and I&#039;m generally sympathetic to your position on the issue under discussion.  But it seems that you are picking and choosing NT or OT regulations to suit your preferred outcome..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not quite sure that&#8217; is a New Testament reference, Scott.  You were pretty specific in your post about the source of your regulations  for today&#8217;s church.  It&#8217;s not my desire to be needlessly argumentative, and I&#8217;m generally sympathetic to your position on the issue under discussion.  But it seems that you are picking and choosing NT or OT regulations to suit your preferred outcome..</p>
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